newbie looking for gear advice

[lin00b]

Hi all,

I ve always been interested in astronomy since young, but having stayed near a big city (kl) and having limited spending power restricted my interests to books and websites.

until recently,

I was visiting sg and stumbled upon the friday session of stargazing at jurong science center and discovered that you can get relatively good view so close to city. that has resparked my interests.

Now I have moved to a relatively more rural area for work and astronomy seemed possible again.

I currently have a 7x56 binocular that I have been taking to an abandoned air strip nearby after work if the evening looked relatively cloudless. managed to spot easier targets such as orion nebula and Pleiades cluster and mizar double star with it. think i got the beehive cluster as well, but not sure.

So now i m thinking of upgrading to a proper telescope and here I m looking for advise.

My requirements:
the scope + mount needs to be relatively light weight and small size. something that can be sneaked into carry on luggage in planes, preferably. it need not be exactly within the cabin luggage dimension limit, but close enough that the boarding ppl wont stop me. maximum weight maybe around 10-15kg. plan to get a hard case luggage trolley to transport it around.

Price is less of an issue. maybe around sgd2-3k for the entire set, maybe more if there is reason to. aperture is vital, but limited by the size and weight limit above. thinking of something around 6" SCT or MCT. in any case, it need to be significantly more than the 2x 56mm aperture my binoculars are giving me at the moment.

gotos are nice to have but not a must. I dont mind old school manual finding. AP are not in short term plans, but some option to use the scope to do moderate AP later would be nice.

any advise/suggestions?

[antares2063]

Hi lin00b

Great to hear you have more access to dark skies than us who are in singapore !

In the past i balanced a 5" Mak-Cass on a Manfrotto 055Pro Tripod
with 410 Geared head. The tube length of the scope was around 30-40cm only. No GEM and counterweights.

Just my 2cents


Regards,
Junwei

[Gary]

Hi lin00b. Welcome to the forum and coming back to the hobby!

Your new telescope setup will definitely let you see more than your binocular. So the more important decision is what kind of celestial objects you prefer to see more over others - e.g. planets, stars, deep-sky objects. Then choose a telescope design that is good for that.

For AZ mount, do invest on one with a good and smooth slo-motion capability.

The combo that Jun Wei mention is a good one.

With a budget of SGD $2k - 3K, here are few more options:

(1) Sturdy camera tripod + Manfrotto 410 mount (slo motion) + telescope

(2) Dedicated AZ mount for astronomy. E.g. Vixen PORTA Mount II + telescope. If you find this tripod leg too bulky. You can just buy the mount head and fix it on a modified a sturdy camera tripod. Check out fellow forum member Starfinder's modification.

There's also a GIRO mount with good push to capability. No slo-mo but in return, more portable than a PORTA.

(3) Portable dobsonian telescope (no need for tripod or mount head). Perhaps 6-inch or 8-inch aperture. If there is still money left, invest on a good quality optics and build.

So for option (1) and (2), choose the telescope design that you prefer. Aperture no doubt is very important, but do pay attention to the quality of the optics and build too. Sometimes, it may be worth trading off a little bit of aperture for something else - e.g. better mirror/lens, smoother 2-speed focuser, more spare money for better eyepieces, visual accessories like binoviewer, retractable dew shields to increase portability, light baffling inside telescope for better contrast, carbon-fiber build to reduce weight ...etc.

If you happen to visit Singapore again, do continue to check out the different telescopes at Science Centre, Galaxy Community Club and events organised by Singastro.

Good luck and have fun re-discovering the Universe!

[antares2063]

Gary : very detailed and informative ! "Liked"

Regards,
Junwei

[lin00b]

thank you for the advise. currently my aim is definitely in the order of
1. DSO (nebulas, galaxies, clusters),
2. planets,
3. stars.

not really keen on a dobs. from what i understand,
1. it does not upgrade well to AP - while i dont plan to do AP for now, i'd like to keep that option open.
2. "tube" (not really sure what the actual name is - traditional?) dobs are rather lengthy for high aperture
3. "frame" (again, not really sure the actual name - portable?) dobs take time to set up and can be a hassle
4. open end means dust collection, and i prefer something a bit more maintenance free.

would the mansfrotto or vixen mount be useful for AP? or would i need to upgrade to do AP?

i have very little idea what model offer good optics, the only 2 brands that i have researched on are celestron and meade. if there is anyone who could give recommendation on specific telescope models that would be very helpful

I had initially bought a meade binoc off ebay, but it came in bad need of collamination. bought to the shop in science center, but the owner says that it's expensive/not possible to collaminate - and offered to trade me to my present celestron binoc. that binoc is of good quality (hence have more confidence in celestron vs meade). however, after speaking to several ppl, i think i might be ripped off at the price. the 8x56 cost more than 400sgd iirc, with the trade in.

[Gary]

@antares2063 Thanks for the like. Must ask Zong to install a Like or +1 button in this forum.

thank you for the advise. currently my aim is definitely in the order of
1. DSO (nebulas, galaxies, clusters),
2. planets,
3. stars.

not really keen on a dobs. from what i understand,
1. it does not upgrade well to AP - while i dont plan to do AP for now, i'd like to keep that option open.
2. "tube" (not really sure what the actual name is - traditional?) dobs are rather lengthy for high aperture
3. "frame" (again, not really sure the actual name - portable?) dobs take time to set up and can be a hassle
4. open end means dust collection, and i prefer something a bit more maintenance free.

would the mansfrotto or vixen mount be useful for AP? or would i need to upgrade to do AP?

i have very little idea what model offer good optics, the only 2 brands that i have researched on are celestron and meade. if there is anyone who could give recommendation on specific telescope models that would be very helpful

@lin00b In that 1-2-3 order, for VISUAL astronomy and VALUE-per-dollar I would recommend non-refractor designs for your priority listing of objects - e.g. dob/newts and sct/mct.

If your prefer more portability over better DSO views, SCT/MCT over dob/newt. Else, vice versa.

You have to answer the question of how long you think you will venture into AP honestly. If we are talking about 3 - 6 months, then you may want to go for a refractor + good tracking mount + AP accessories directly and save yourself the hassle of upgrading in the mid to long term.

There are gear that you just have to buy everything again instead of just simply upgrading existing gear. For example, you cannot buy a AZ PORTA mount and later add electronics and convert that into fully GOTO tracking mount for AP. You cannot add/remove gear to physically widened a SCT field of view to transform it into a wider field-of-view telescope as wide as a F/5 refractor.

If you have the budget and passion for this hobby, then get 2 setups - one portable grab-and-go for visual astronomy. Another heavy duty set up for AP. Then there is no need to force yourself to upgrade one to another in the future because you will appreciate them as it is and as what they are designed for. Just like you don't buy a binocular and worry about converting it to a telescope in the future and there is no compulsory need to sell off your binocular when you get a telescope.

Read up more about different type of telescopes, manufacturer and price from online retailers like the following: http://www.optcorp.com/telescopes.html

Before buying anything, I highly recommend you attend a few public stargazing sessions and have look at different objects through different telescope. Else, it is hard to judge how much you are really willing to compromise in terms of view, portability, ease of use, ease of converting to astrophotography with the same telescope.

Regarding your 4 points about dobs:

1. Dobs can do AP. But definitely involves more hassle and things to take care of (e.g. balancing and accuracy of tracking over long period of time) than the traditional non-dob AP setups. Recent example of tracking dob doing AP - Sombrero Galaxy with 10" dob - http://astroshake.com/2013/04/2013-04-0 ... ro-galaxy/

2. Dob can be in the form of solid tube or the more portable and collapsible truss-tube design. If the focal ratio of the dob is fast, even a big aperture dob can be relatively "short" - e.g. at standing height observing level when it is pointed straight up, without needing a chair or ladder.

3. Dob's speed of installation and tear down *may* be slightly faster and easier comparing to other designs of the same aperture. For example, compare the ease and speed of setup of a 10 inch dob vs a 10 inch SCT/MCT/refractor(!). The latter may require more time on setting up the tripod, adding the heavy duty mount, counterweight, doing balancing. IIRC correctly, veteran astronomer Rlow in this forum mentioned that it is easier for him to setup his 15" tracking dobsonian than his 6" refractor.

4. An open end design (dob/newt), just like any telescope design, have its pros and cons. So should not just focus and over amplify on its cons.

Some cons:

- No doubt it being open means more dust may fall in. But cleaning of primary mirror does not need to be done on a very regular basis. Perhaps once every 2 - 3 years.

- The spider vane holding the secondary mirror may create light spikes when viewing/imaging very bright stars. Personally, it doesn't bother me. So take a look in one and decide for yourself.

- Off axis coma is generally more visible in a dob/newt compared to other design of the same aperture. Especially dob with fast focal ratio.

- Compared to SCT/MCT of same aperture, physically longer/bulkier.

- Longer collimation process compared to other design. But one you learn it and practice it a few times, it will only take a few minutes, especially with laser collimators and you can do it alone.

In return, the pros are:

- usually lighter compared to SCT/MCT of the *same aperture* which has a glass corrector in front

- with the primary mirror deep inside a tube/shroud, it does not dew up so easily or at all compared to SCT/MCT. Thus no need to buy dew zappers in dewy places (i.e. less hassle)

- will a low centre of gravity (dob), not likely the trip over or drop (compared to scopes on tripod). Especially in public sidewalk situations.

- less lens/mirror to bounce off light (no need for corrector lens) can give brighter images

- open tube systems generally have smaller central obstruction compared to typical SCT/MCT which can improve contrast.


Happy researching and hope to see you soon in future astro events.

[antares2063]

Frame dobs - Truss tube / Collapsible Dob

I feel that if your eventual aim is to branch out and play around in Astrophotography, and you wish to have generous aperture over your binocs for visual, a SCT/MCT or "hybrid" scope suits your needs best.

Some brands you can try searching online : Skywatcher, Vixen , Celestron , Orion

I had a friend who loaned me his Skywatcher MCT for awhile to test the weight on the manfrotto setup, before I bought my own Lomo MCT. It was my fastest setup if i wanted to observe. Just attach the plate to MCT and click! onto the gear head.

Newtonians/Dobsonians offer big aperture at low price, I had 2 different Newts in the past, and cleaning the mirror is not something I do very often, dust is just..dust it wont affect your views However setting up the newtonian took a while and i hurt my back trying to "grab-and....ahem GO" an 8inch Newtonian to try to observe downstairs. The full load of counterweights, tripod and GEM plus scope was too much for me ;)

Which brings me to the next point : collimation of mirrors. Schmidt-Cass need less collimation than Newtonians/Dobsonians in general. MCT ...almost never.

For per inch of aperture, refractors are the most costly, because the lens is made of ED glass or fluorite elements (mostly 2 elements/doublet, but high-end scopes might have 3/triplet or even 4/quadruplet design).

Hope this helps, it can be confusing with the wide range of scopes out there..take your time to do research and look around

Regards,
Junwei

[lin00b]

indeed it is easy to go into analysis paralysis with the wide variety of scopes around. I agree the best way is probably to go and look at various scopes. unfortunately the area i'm in, astronomy is virtually unknown - which is sad, cause they dont know what they are missing with their easy access to darker skies.

if i have the chance to go to sg, i ll definitely go test some scopes. until then, its overloading on reviews and bringing out my binocs whenever the evening looks clear.

thanks for all the advise so far, keep em coming!

yes, i think i have my heart set out on a MCT/SCT. do they have any cons? are there any significant differences between them? from what i understand, the light path travels slightly differently, but there is no practical differences?

[Gary]

Some call it analysis paralysis, others call it fun of acquiring knowledge and feeling great and rewarded after a well-researched purchase with little regrets from that point onwards.

MCT:

Pros:
- If well-collimated in factory, no further collimation required for MCT. Collimation does not go off easily. Well made SCTs can hold collimation well, but may need to collimate once in a while for best performance.
- For same aperture, generally smaller central obstruction - better contrast, sharper stars approaching refractor quality.
- Corrector glass design easier to manufacture accurately - higher chance of quality, consistent optics.

Cons:

- Heavier than SCT due to thicker corrector glass and need for sturdy tube body to hold collimation
- Thicker corrector glass than SCT also means longer time to cool down. Not a very big issue for use in equatorial countries.
- For same price as SCT, can only buy a slightly smaller aperture telescope. E.g. 6 inch MCT is more expensive than a 6 inch SCT generally.

If you reverse these pros and cons of MCT, you will get the pros and cons of SCT. So make a priority list of what is more important to you and decide - e.g. weight, portability, willingness to collimate, must have biggest possible aperture for same budget, quality of optics ...etc.

Some popular models are the Skywatcher Mak127 and Celestron C6 XLT.

[beginner]

Lin00b,

Welcome to the Astro hobby.

If you are happily able to see Orion Nebula and the Pleiades why do you want to waste money to collimate the bino.
Bino collimation is not easy.
You can ask Meade USA about the collimation price for reference.
Then you will knows if any shop try to quote you too expensive.

Celestron has a large range of Bino at different price range.
Astro shop quote you at S$400. Maybe is is the high quality range.
Trade-in could be a Celestron sale discount strategy against their competitor brand.

Most of Astro shop items are displayed with price tags in readable form.
Unlike other shops who display it their own code which we do not understand.
So if you feel it is expensive after seeing the price you don't have to buy.
All astro product can be priced check in via USA or Europe or Japan website. You can't get ripped.
When buying from USA online shop, there is GST, freight cost and waiting time to consider.

What is important is that there is a shop in Spore in case we need a certain items urgently.

If you are regular perhaps they maybe extend you some discount.

Ebay is not always a trusty place. The cheapest usually turns to be the most expensive.

About your equipment requirement, I suggest you follow a group who do imaging.
They can show and tell you about the type of equipment you need to have to get the desire result.

Your criteria is to able to put the the entire astro equipment in a cabin bag.
Equipment that small can only produce limited performance.
Every telescope and mount has a limit.