Life in Double Stars?

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Tachyon
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Life in Double Stars?

Post by Tachyon »

There's such a thing as the (shucks i forgot the name) habitable zone? It's a range of distances away from the sun where the temperatures allow water to be in the liquid state, hence allow life to form. a double-star system will wreck this zone by making it an "8" shape, or even a peanut shape if they're close enough. A planet cannot have such a strange-shaped orbit because it will eventually crash into either star, nor can it be far enough that it orbits in an elliptic because a far orbit would eventually swing it away by one of the star's gravity. It's a die or die situation. Even if there's actually a far orbit that can be stable, at least part of the time Earth will not exist in the "habitable zone", and that means ice age, and civilisation can't exist either. That's what i think. Abit confusing, because my thoughts are always like that ^^||
It's good that you think of these questions. However, there are some assumptions you made which made life "impossible":

1. You assumed that the two suns will be equal in size, and hence contribute a significant effect on the orbit of the planet. In fact, if it were the case, the orbit of the planet will not be an '8' shape but rather a highly complicated orbit which is the basis of the N-body problem. Remember, the two suns will also orbit around each other. In this case, I would agree that the planet will highly unlikely to harbor any conditions stable enough to support life (highly unlikely, as there is always the minimal possibility that life can still exist beneath the surface and thus shielded from the effects of the radiation fluctuations). Based on current binary star data, most of the binary have one sun that is half the mass of the other. In fact, if you only count data from visual observations, it may be even less, with one sun 1/5 the mass of the other (see Figure below). I am not sure that planetary bodies in double-stars will tend to be elliptical if they are sufficiently far away from the binary system. I will run a few simulations to confirm.

2. If the planet is at the same distance from the two suns as Earth is from the Sun, then I agree that the planet would be unlikely to harbor life. However, if you move the orbit of the planet further out such that the total amount of radiation received is the same as what Earth is currently exposed to, then the environment may remain hospitable for life.

3. The conditions of a planet is not determined only from the distance from the sun(s), but also on the composition of the planet and its atmosphere. The atmosphere can buffer or aggrevate the amount of radiation from the sun(s). For example, Mars is 52% (78 million Km) further out from the Sun than Earth, and the temperature variation is from -8 to -113 deg C. For Venus, at 27% (41 million Km) nearer to the Sun, the temperature is about 482 deg C. The difference of the surface temperature between Earth and Venus is out of proportion to the radiation exposure from the Sun, and the reason, which you know, is due to the "greenhouse" effect of high CO2 levels in Venus. The interesting question would be: if we move Venus out to Mars orbit, will it have 'Earth-like' living conditions?

4. The 'habitable zone' is only applicable to life forms that depend on water. For life forms that depend on other (highly speculative) mediums life methane, the habitable zone is different.

Nonetheless, I agree with you that life would probably have a difficult time on such a planet. In fact, my personal view is that intelligent life is highly improbable in the Universe except Earth! Which is a pity, as I'm looking forward to joining the Starfleet Academy in my lifetime!

Cheers!
[80% Steve, 20% Alfred] ------- Probability of Clear Skies = (Age of newest equipment in days) / [(Number of observers) * (Total Aperture of all telescopes present in mm)]
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Post by weixing »

Hi,
Is life possible in a double star system... may be yes, may be no... there is no definite answer.

Anyway, if life can be found in the deep sea where no sunlight can reached and in an extremely hostile environment, I think there are still a chance that life can exist in any star system.
In fact, my personal view is that intelligent life is highly improbable in the Universe except Earth!
I'm more optimistic. IMHO, I think there are intelligent life out there... The only problem is that the distance between us and other stars are just too far away.... and that's a BIG problem.

By the way, from the first rocket (V2 missile) which could fly high enough to get into space till now are less than 70 years and the furthest spacecraft that we launch are just leaving our solar system (we just only manage to got out of our own backyard only =P ), so basically we are just started to explore the space... it is just too early to said that there are no intelligent life out there.

Have a nice day.
Yang Weixing
:mrgreen: "The universe is composed mainly of hydrogen and ignorance." :mrgreen:
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Tachyon
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Post by Tachyon »

Like my friend used to say: "Intelligent life out there? I can't even find intelligent life on Earth!" :=P
[80% Steve, 20% Alfred] ------- Probability of Clear Skies = (Age of newest equipment in days) / [(Number of observers) * (Total Aperture of all telescopes present in mm)]
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weixing
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Post by weixing »

Hi,
Like my friend used to say: "Intelligent life out there? I can't even find intelligent life on Earth!" :
Ha ha ha... =P =P =P

Here is another one from the John Dobson DVD: "Universe is made up of mostly hydrogen and ignorance...." ha ha ha :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Have a nice day.
Yang Weixing
:mrgreen: "The universe is composed mainly of hydrogen and ignorance." :mrgreen:
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Post by Canopus Lim »

Even if there are life outside our solar system.. I seriously doubt we can ever reach there with such technology around. Even if it the spacecraft can travel at light speed (300,000km/s compared to rockets which are just traveling few kilometres per sec) it will take 4 years to reach the nearest star! If people on earth wants to communicate with the spacecraft.. it will require 8 years to get back the message from the spacecraft assuming it has safely reach the star. So, if a rocket traveling at the speed now.. it will take hundreds to thousands of years to reach there.
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Tachyon
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Post by Tachyon »

Yes, but that doesn't stop our imagination from coming up with new and innovative ways to circumvent the speed of light limitation - folding space, for instance.

Space is indeed huge - even Voyager, stuck 75,000 light years aways from Earth in the Delta Quadrant of our own Milky Way galaxy, with faster-than-light max warp speed of 9.975, still needs 75 years to get back! How much more to reach the nearest galaxy?

Cheers!
[80% Steve, 20% Alfred] ------- Probability of Clear Skies = (Age of newest equipment in days) / [(Number of observers) * (Total Aperture of all telescopes present in mm)]
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Post by Aryanto »

Ah I love this topic about distance in space.
I have this OAV DVD directed by Makoto Shinkai.
It is a story of long distance relationship when the boy stays on earth while his girlfriend join the earth defense force to fight alien invasion at pluto orbit. They keep in-touch using mobilephone text mail (sms) and while the distance between them grows, the message frequency reduces as well.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclo ... php?id=775
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ALPiNe
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Post by ALPiNe »

Hmm…Given the complex nature of the binary star system, I think the planet is highly doomed to be torn to bits as long as it orbits the binary star, considering if all other factors like distance, mass and orbital path are ignored. The differential gravitational and tidal forces induced by the spiralling binary star alone are enough to have the planet shredded. If the binary star happens to be a massive duo, and if the planet happens to be caught in an orbit which is very close to the two suns, then most likely the planet would have to be small, probably the size of mercury, or it might be torn apart by the strong tidal forces. Hence, in this instance, I think the chemical forces within the planet which helps hold it together will be the most effective in countering against the gravitational forces of the binary star. In other settings, distance would otherwise be a more common and effective way of ensuring the successful formation of their planets, and hence supports the possibility of harbouring Life.

I don’t hold very high hopes of finding ‘intelligent life’ out there in space too, but if you say finding ‘life’, then yeah..I would agree.. =P With extreme temperatures, no water and high radiation doses, life seems impossible out there and even for living organisms back here on Earth. However, this is generally not the case. There’s actually an organism found on Earth which can withstand high levels of radiation that would kill other living entities, including most bacteria. It seems like there’s almost practically no way to kill off this organism, which is a bacterium, and scientists are already thinking of exploiting it on places like Mars! :o You can find out more about it through this link:

http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlin ... ec99_1.htm

If there already exists such a life form here on Earth, then there’s a possibility that such a life form can also exist out there in space. The question is, where?


Cheers,
:cheers:
- ALPiNe
Last edited by ALPiNe on Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ALPiNe
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Post by ALPiNe »

Check this out:

http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/press/pr0525.html

Picture: http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/press/pr0525image.html

Hmm..the dusk disk around this binary pair seems to be in an elliptic orbit..


Here’s more:

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2005-115

Video: http://cc.jpl.nasa.gov/universe/Planetq ... e-suns.qtl

Animation: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/videos/trinary_sunset-low.mov

It’s interesting how planets can form in complex three stars systems but not in the case of the red dwarf binary star system…


Cheers,
:cheers:
- ALPiNe
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zong
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Post by zong »

Cool stuff! It's nice to know we're debating in a fashion like the astronomers out there really researching using tools far more advanced than we have here :goodjob:

Yea, sorry about having the extreme view of "they will NEVER have life", i believe now nothing is impossible in this world :D In fact, while wasting my life away in camp, i actually thought of an exception to my own rule! It is when stars are sufficiently far apart to make the habitable zones not merge, then each star can have habitable planets of its own!

And great work to Alpine for showing me the article on a planet in a triple star system. However, I also have to point out that the "planet" was in fact a "hot jupiter", ie. nearly a star of its own, so this is actually a special case of a nearly complete quadruple star system that didn't make it that far..

Can this thread continue please? So fun debating on the unknown. Most of my friends who claim they like theoretical astronomy can't even keep up this far with our posts, so it ain't fun talking to them like it is here :k-chuckle:
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