Ethos price announced

Canopus Lim · Post by **Canopus Lim** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:45 pm

Is there any Nagler, Panoptic clone out there? Which brand? Anyway, I am not saying that the Chinese products are that bad (they are bang for the buck), it is just that they cannot be at that level currently. They will not be just as good. Maybe years down the road.

If they were just as good and so cheap, there should be Astrophysics, TMB, Tak clones already; if they can build these scopes just as good and way cheaper, I will get them.

Also, chinese manufacturing tolerances are not that good that is a fact. You need expensive machines and well trained people to produce good optics. Design is one, manufacturing is another. You can have a super design, but it cannot perform to spec if your manufacturing is not as accurate in tolerance. Also, even if they do steal the design or reverse engineer, it still require some design to reoptimize it to fit their production ability.

For example Newtonian mirrors. The Orion dobs are really cheap and they offer like >80 precent of the performance of premium dobs optically. Can they be the same level as premium newts. No , unless you are lucky to get one that has really good strehl ratio and surface finish level. For price/ performance I would say the Chinese optics are good. However, they will not be 'just as good'. Anyway, people pay a lot more for that 10 percent difference. Whether it is worth it or not is another story.

vhuang168 · Post by **vhuang168** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:04 am

weixing wrote: Agree... Now they can manufacture and sell a 80mm F6 Triplet APO at less than S$850... so what's next??

Anyway, good for us...

Have a nice day.

What company has an 80mm f6 triplet apo for that price?

vhuang168 · Post by **vhuang168** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:40 am

Canopus Lim wrote:Is there any Nagler, Panoptic clone out there? Which brand? Anyway, I am not saying that the Chinese products are that bad (they are bang for the buck), it is just that they cannot be at that level currently. They will not be just as good. Maybe years down the road.

If they were just as good and so cheap, there should be Astrophysics, TMB, Tak clones already; if they can build these scopes just as good and way cheaper, I will get them. Also, chinese manufacturing tolerances are not that good that is a fact. You need expensive machines and well trained people to produce good optics. Design is one, manufacturing is another. You can have a super design, but it cannot perform to spec if your manufacturing is not as accurate in tolerance. Also, even if they do steal the design or reverse engineer, it still require some design to reoptimize it to fit their production ability.

For example Newtonian mirrors. The Orion dobs are really cheap and they offer like >80 precent of the performance of premium dobs optically. Can they be the same level as premium newts. No , unless you are lucky to get one that has really good strehl ratio and surface finish level. For price/ performance I would say the Chinese optics are good. However, they will not be 'just as good'. Anyway, people pay a lot more for that 10 percent difference. Whether it is worth it or not is another story.

Agreed!!

While they maybe able to copy and reverse engineer a similar lens, even down to actual lens used, there is a certain level of quality control and technical skill involved. That is why AP has had such a high standard because Roland is the ONLY person figuring a lens. And that shows in the quality and PRICE!!

Would I be happy with a scope delivering 80% of the performance for 50% of the price? Maybe, its a tough call. The main complaint I have for AP is the long wait for a new scope. Their new prices are not really that much higher and will always hold or increase as the years go by.

But, the choice is always with the buyer and they will vote with their dollars.

Vincent

Post by **weixing** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:23 am

Hi,

What company has an 80mm f6 triplet apo for that price?

The brand is Maxvision and they are the Meade OEM manufacturer. That scope is actually the Meade 5000 Series 80mm F6 ED APO.... the price is around S$100 cheaper than Meade 5000 Series 80mm F6 ED APO.

Below is the link to the scope in the new Maxvision user forum (chinese website) which is not that ready yet:
http://www.maxvision.org.cn/bbs/dispbbs ... 283&page=1

Anyway, still waiting for their online website to be ready.

Have a nice day.

Post by **VinSnr** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:29 am

acc wrote:
jermng wrote:What are Nagler Clones? the UWANS?
WO is a reputable company; don't think they do clones

to me, UWANs are clones, Meade UWAs are clones. Clones to the naglers.

But who cares. They are good and not as expensive as the naglers. Naglers are cut throat.

If I have perfect skies, perfect conditions, I would buy the perfect scope and perfect eyepieces. But over here, half of the time we have bad to terrible conditions. Perfect will become imperfect anyway. Clones will do for me. I have better use for the extra money saved.

Post by **VinSnr** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:30 am

weixing wrote:Hi,
What company has an 80mm f6 triplet apo for that price?
The brand is Maxvision and they are the Meade OEM manufacturer. That scope is actually the Meade 5000 Series 80mm F6 ED APO.... the price is around S$100 cheaper than Meade 5000 Series 80mm F6 ED APO.

Below is the link to the scope in the new Maxvision user forum (chinese website) which is not that ready yet:
http://www.maxvision.org.cn/bbs/dispbbs ... 283&page=1

Anyway, still waiting for their online website to be ready.

Have a nice day.

I am waiting for their 127mm!

Post by **VinSnr** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:38 am

Canopus Lim wrote:Is there any Nagler, Panoptic clone out there? Which brand? Anyway, I am not saying that the Chinese products are that bad (they are bang for the buck), it is just that they cannot be at that level currently. They will not be just as good. Maybe years down the road.

I think you should take a look at some of the UWANS and UWAs. These are all made in Taiwan/China. If you can see a difference with the nagler using same or approx. the same FL, then you must have super eyes. I have compared many naglers with UWAs and UWANs over the years and see negligible differences among them. Ok la..the UWA sometime oil leak a bit when you twist that bugger but other than that, they are good.

Post by **acc** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:36 am

The Meade 5k UWAs and WO UWANS may perform similarly to TV's Naglers, and may be manufactured in China or Taiwan, but they are certainly NOT clones. We have to make a careful distinction here.

Post by **VinSnr** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:18 am

acc wrote:The Meade 5k UWAs and WO UWANS may perform similarly to TV's Naglers, and may be manufactured in China or Taiwan, but they are certainly NOT clones. We have to make a careful distinction here.

I classify anything that shows 80+ degrees FOV as clones. Of course not clones in terms of design and look. But clones as in the effect. We can't open the eyepiece and appreciate the different design anyway...we can only see the effect.

In anycase, I love clones! The Baader Hyperion is a very good clone to the Pentax XL and XW too. I tested on the f/5 and it is almost as good. it is only at the f/4 that the Hyperion started losing out with clear differences.

Canopus Lim · Post by **Canopus Lim** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:27 am

VinSnr wrote:
acc wrote:
jermng wrote:What are Nagler Clones? the UWANS?
WO is a reputable company; don't think they do clones
to me, UWANs are clones, Meade UWAs are clones. Clones to the naglers.

But who cares. They are good and not as expensive as the naglers. Naglers are cut throat.

If I have perfect skies, perfect conditions, I would buy the perfect scope and perfect eyepieces. But over here, half of the time we have bad to terrible conditions. Perfect will become imperfect anyway. Clones will do for me. I have better use for the extra money saved.

The UWANS and Meade UWAs are not Nagler clones. They are different in design and hence different in performance. The reply was to whether a clone (which is exact replica) can be as good as the original and way cheaper. It is not comparing between eyepieces of different brands/ different specs and make. Also, Singapore's seeing conditions is rather ok. So, that small improvement in contrast and sharpness can be seen. Just a few days back, I could easily see 0.8 arc second split of double star at a rather poor to average seeing conditions. Imagine if it is good. Some people in other parts of the world cannot even have 1 arc second split at their best conditions.

Whether I see a difference? Yes. I won't say the difference is that great but there is a difference like in all the optics stuff out there.