2 new SV telescopes announced!!

[vhuang168]

Disclaimer: This is not a bash. I'm just giving a differing opinion. Sometimes you can't tell how the post was meant to be taken, written word is just not as expressive as spoken so a lot of the nuances are lost. So please take this as a semi serious argument and nothing else.

i'm actually leaning towards the at111edt instead of the sv115. 700 bucks more for 4mm more aperture, and the idea of a all american company doesn't really make much sense to me.

Assuming both are the same quality optically speaking. Its all in the perspective. Right now, you are tending towards the AT because you believe that they will be compareable optically and are basing the pricing on that. If we follow your logic, then TMB's 92 triplet much be astronomically overpriced at $1999. And WO must be mad to price the FLT110 @ $2798. BTW, 4mm in aperture = 7.3% more glass.

does this mean that if some china company start putting up a website, a nice forum, telling how they make their scope under tight stringent cnc, every piece of lens hand figured and zygo, then start tested 3 times consecutive. would their scope be worth the 700 bucks premium?

If they can make a telescope with the same quality as the high end companies, (TEC, AP, SV, TAK) then yes, it is worth a premium. How much of a premium will have to be determined by the market. But I think initially it won't be much but if they can maintain the quality all the time then it will climb as others find out about the company and more telescopes get into circulation.[/quote]

to date, if we were to rate scopes from ap and tak to be maybe 99% of perfection. i believe many of those china scopes would easily be in the 97% range. wouldn't make sense if u use an expensive piece of ed glass, and do a lousy job out of the figuring and mechanics.

Companies in China are not in it for the love of the hobby. They are in it to make money. I don't think they care how good they can make it as long as it is good enough for people to buy and it is priced to make the most profit. You should see the type of telescopes that come out of China, it is very surprising what they think will sell a telescope. The price of ED glass can be mitigated by bulk priceing. So if you can get ED glass for a good price and everything else cheap, you can make a good telescope but not the best. I think your % to perfection for chinese scopes may be a little generous. They are in the 90s but closer to 90% than 100%. But you have to compare apples to apples.

anyone wish to challenge that the astrotech scope and the wo scope are nowhere near those from ap/tak? we have been going thru all the skeptics since the introduction of the orion 80ed. many believed that it would just be a semi-apo with substandard optics. for those who bought it, were those myth true?

i dun think so. i too looked thru one of the earlier orion 80ed, and was quite surprised by the cleaniness of the images. of course it's no tak fc76/fs78, but still, very gd for the 500 bucks.

Actually, on the Orion telescope, it can be said that it is not an APO. Even the Taks cannot really claim to be an APO based on the technical definitions. Color correction is very very good, but not apochromatic. Granted, it is a very good telescope and does satisfy the needs of many astronomers. BTW, the 80ed is not really 80mm. I think it was shown that the elements are vigneted slightly to improve the color correction by increasing the f ratio.

Don't know which AT and WO you are talking about so I can't comment on that.

of course i wouldn't say that sv is completely not worth the money, if ur looking for a nice ft focuser, and a scope with the ability to binoview without extra effort. and maybe the piece of mind knowing every sv scope is perfect, i would say, y not? maybe the ft focuser itself is already worth 300-500 diff already.

All else aside, you will be ok with the knowledge that the scope you buy is possiblily NOT perfect?

of course, i'm still thinking wat to buy. so many options, but seems like the scope i wan is always not available. no specific preference for ft focuser. if sv would sell the sv115 without the ft focuser at maybe 300-500 lesser, might be worth considering. but i'm still dreaming of a 5". maybe i should just part with my money and get the tmb 130ss.

Ultimately, the deciscion is all yours. If you feel that the AT is comfortably priced for you then buy it. As long as it gets you outside and under the stars enjoying the view!!

[/quote]
the investment part, i dun think one should be buying or selling scopes based on investment value. scopes are meant to be used, to enjoy the beautiful nightsky. not bought so that one can star test it, compare it with ur buddy's scope, and then pack it up nicely and hide it under ur bed.

~MooEy~[/quote]

I agree.

Vincent

[MooEy]

heh, no intention to bash either. just shooting whatever is on my mind. vincent ar, i think u are very poisoned by the ang moh philosophy liao la. must turn back while u can. stop reading those ap and sv forums and spend those time instead under the skies la.

i find it hard to put 1.5x to 3x the cash for something deemed as perfect, as compared to something near perfect. to date, i do not believe that there is anything such as a perfect telescope. there will always be some kind of compromise somewhere, unless u wan built some 130 f/15 flourite triplet. even if it's really that perfect, the atmosphere is prolly less perfect than anything else.

end of the day, we must always remember that manufacturers words do not improve the images of stars under the skies. neither do those wierd looking zemax diagram perform extra well under the skies. wat really matter is the scope's performance itself.

who care if it's a air space triplet with 6 different internal radial and a thermally compensated cell. if it doesn't perform any better than a china made air space triplet, it's not going to be worth any premium. even if it does, by how much? 2x? 3x? is it really worth twice the price?

i find it quite offending when u mention that u mention "Companies in China are not in it for the love of the hobby. They are in it to make money." how can one determine that the chinese are not in the love of the hobby? have u ever spoke to each and every one of the boss of those telescope making companies? did all of them say they are only interested in money?

i do believe there are also ang moh scope manufacturers out there looking at profit only. if not for those people, u wouldn't see sub-standard china scopes being made and sold in the us. i think if it's not for the china makers, telescopes would still cost an arm and a leg. it's them who drove market prices down, and they did not make it happen by selling sub-standard scopes.

china have come a long way, moving up in terms of technology and manufacturing techniques. go take a look at liu ming's china toys when u have the chance.

ps: the flt-110 is prolly a bargain at 2.8k if u factor in the free case, the 4" focuser and the tmb factor. then again, how many will ever need the 4" focuser? film is dead. how many still have their pentax 6x7 or some mamiya around?

~MooEy~

[anat]

SV115T seems to be one of the best deals among 4.5 inch mid- or high end scopes. To me, it is more interesting than tsa102 because of its size and ft focuser. Vincent, do you have details about lens design and source?

[vhuang168]

heh, no intention to bash either. just shooting whatever is on my mind. vincent ar, i think u are very poisoned by the ang moh philosophy liao la. must turn back while u can. stop reading those ap and sv forums and spend those time instead under the skies la.

That's because most of the independent telescope manufacturers in the world are in the US. And they are willing to share their knowledge with us. I spend as much spare time as I can under the stars. My AP1200 is permanently setup in my backyard with various telescope attached (which depends on what I felt like during that period, right now I have the SV95T up). I just need to step outside with my eyepiece case.

i find it hard to put 1.5x to 3x the cash for something deemed as perfect, as compared to something near perfect. to date, i do not believe that there is anything such as a perfect telescope. there will always be some kind of compromise somewhere, unless u wan built some 130 f/15 flourite triplet. even if it's really that perfect, the atmosphere is prolly less perfect than anything else.

Perfect in the sense that the color correction is as good as possible. Manufacturering and QC tolerances are as tight as can be. Lens are properly installed and not loose. Lens are properly collimated. etc etc.

end of the day, we must always remember that manufacturers words do not improve the images of stars under the skies. neither do those wierd looking zemax diagram perform extra well under the skies. wat really matter is the scope's performance itself.

Agreed. And every SV and AP telescope I've looked through have matched or exceeded their claims and statements.

I've not had enough time through TAKs but I've heard good things about them. Same with WO but they've had some controversy as well about their telescopes. Is it true that they use TEC for the 110?

I think there is some confusion about telescope companies. IMO, there are manufacturers and there are what I call resellers. Manufacturers make/design their own lens or contract out to lens polishers to make lens to their own specs. Resellers buy prepackaged telescopes from other manufacturers (usually mass manufacturers), make slight cosmetic changes and resell them under their own brand. AT, Orion, Celesctron and Meade come under that.

who care if it's a air space triplet with 6 different internal radial and a thermally compensated cell. if it doesn't perform any better than a china made air space triplet, it's not going to be worth any premium. even if it does, by how much? 2x? 3x? is it really worth twice the price?

If it doesn't then it wasn't designed very well and won't sell. The point is an AP or any other telescope from the major manufacturers WILL 99% of the time outperform a similar scope mass made in China and resold under various brands.

i find it quite offending when u mention that u mention "Companies in China are not in it for the love of the hobby. They are in it to make money." how can one determine that the chinese are not in the love of the hobby? have u ever spoke to each and every one of the boss of those telescope making companies? did all of them say they are only interested in money?

I don't know of any CEOs of ANY chinese telescope company talk about astronomy as a personal hobby. Do you? I am making an assumtion here, but one based on observation. I do spend a lot of time online and I've yet to come across an representitive of the Chinese companies come out and give an obeserving report or mention something he saw through though a telescope that made him think/ooh and ah... Has anyone seen that on any of the Chinese sites?

Do any of them make a no holds barred telescope? Something that is as well corrected and as high QC as AP? I think they know it will be very low margin and won't sell. I will admit that they may be interested in astronomy personally, but they will always have the bottom line in mind when making telescopes. I think its a chinese business man thing.

i do believe there are also ang moh scope manufacturers out there looking at profit only. if not for those people, u wouldn't see sub-standard china scopes being made and sold in the us. i think if it's not for the china makers, telescopes would still cost an arm and a leg. it's them who drove market prices down, and they did not make it happen by selling sub-standard scopes.

Of course there are. No doubt that even AP has to have the bottom line in sight. They have to, or else they won't be able to make more telescopes. Everyone has to make profit. But is that the ultimate goal or do they really like making telescopes? Is the guy/woman in China assembling your lens care if it is maginally misaligned? Will the lens cell be assembled on Monday or Friday?

china have come a long way, moving up in terms of technology and manufacturing techniques. go take a look at liu ming's china toys when u have the chance.

ps: the flt-110 is prolly a bargain at 2.8k if u factor in the free case, the 4" focuser and the tmb factor. then again, how many will ever need the 4" focuser? film is dead. how many still have their pentax 6x7 or some mamiya around?

China is up and coming. And I have mentioned that soon, they will have telescops that will truly give AP a run for their money if they stay stagnant. But right now, they are still a ways away.

As for the 4" focusers, its all about how big an image circle you need. You can't have your image circle the same size as your CCD chip because there will be light fall off at the edges. Same reason why most dslrs have smaller chips than 35mm. And why Canon redesigned their lens mount and increased the size to 60mm (which translates to almost 2.5" wide).


All in all, what it boils down to is how much you want to spend on last bit of performance. Maybe its because the sky is not that dark over there and that evens out the performance so you can't see the difference. It all boils down to what you like and how much you want to spend. Or spend what you like and be happy!!


Vincent

[vhuang168]

SV115T seems to be one of the best deals among 4.5 inch mid- or high end scopes. To me, it is more interesting than tsa102 because of its size and ft focuser. Vincent, do you have details about lens design and source?

Here you go.

SV115T

Vincent

[vhuang168]

On telescope company owners at are into the hobby, how many of the chinese CEOs do this?

Last nigt Bob Fera and his wife set up a special program on Astronomy
at the local Auburn Library. The room was filled both with local
amateurs and people interested in learning more about Astronomy. I
was the speaker and I presented a shortened version of my Majesty of
the Night Sky Program. In the couse of one hour I covered everything
there is about Astronomy. Yeah, sure.

When I do this program and I get to the part about Galileo, I usually
have him appear so people can ask him questions. I had Alex, Bob's 4
1/2 year old son ready on cue. There was a sign posted outside of the
closet door that said "Time Machine." I asked, "Hey Alex, what does
that sign say?" He said, "TIME MACHINE"! So I asked the audience if I
should use the Time Machine to bring Galileo back from the past. They
agreed and we did. Galileo literally came out of the closet.

It is always a challenge for attendees to think of what to ask
Galileo after he does his brief 15 minute synopsis on his life. We
had several kids who asked pertainent questions like, "How come
Galileo looks like you?" I will report that like Stellarvue,
continuous improvement is something Galileo practices. He has a much
better hat and his broken English is a little better.

Following his appearance the program concluded with the Great Debate
and the discovery that spiral nebulae were Island Universes. We then
went outside to look at the comet through a Stellarvue Nighthawk and
an SV90T. It is great to conclude a program with a comet. What a
great night.

Bob Fera has his astrophotographs on display at the Auburn Library
and I have replaced many of the images used in my Majesty of the
Night Sky program with his images taken with the 102T. In fact, most
of the deep sky images in this program are now those taken by Tony
Hallas, Jon Talbot, Phil Good, Bob Fera and others. Some of the
submissions, made by other imagers, have not yet been posted on our
site but will soon. As we get more submissions for Stellar Shot of
the Week, I will soon have all deep sky and planetary shots in this
normally three hour program, taken exclusively by Stellarvue owners.
I will have to add credits at the end I suppose. As you all know,
these images leave nothing to be desired.

I did not realize that our local library offered their meeting room
for only $10 an hour. So I plan to do more local community outreach
next year including a Telescope Tune Up in the Spring. One of our
customers attended last night's program with his new NHNG. He was
smart. He had Byron Ross and I set up his telescope for it's first
Light which was the comet. I appreciate someone who does not want to
damage anything and takes advantage of our customer service before
making a mistake. People who are completely new to astronomy
sometimes need to be guided through things for the first time. I
would rather reply to an email rather than handle a return to fix
something accidently damaged. The fact that he bought a NHNG with M1A
mount means he got one of the easiest systems to use. Nothing
complicated with this rig, but taking advantage of a program like the
one last night got him started on the right foot. And what a great
first light object!

This customer asked about a Telescope Tune Up and that is what got me
thinking. Don Macholtz does such a program in the spring so I will
probably give him a call so we can coordinate a special program
together. I occasionally help him with his outreach. This community
has some great resources with about one dozen different companies
offering Astronomical gear. A few more companies will be opening soon
in the Sierra Foothills I have heard. So the Sierra Foothills is
really a hotbed of astronomical innovation.

More to follow

Vic

[Canopus Lim]

In optics, if one wants better quality it would result in more money. The tighter the tolerance, the more money it is....You would be surprised that variations in quality does happen in EVERY optics sample..and I know this because I am working in the optics field. I would think that those very premium refractors are built with higher specifications (and thus a higher minimum criteria in the normal distribution curve in production especially with additional QC) and that is why the higher cost. The cheaper scopes, though they are good, I DO NOT feel that it would be AT THE SAME LEVEL and also the odds of getting a less than good one is higher.

Whether the person can see the difference is another thing but there are differences in specifications.

[dalejr]

i have the new sv 115 and love it.imo it is one of the best 115 ive looked through and you cant beat the price .there are several 115,s out there and this deal is hard to beat.my buddy has a tmb 115 and my sv puts up views just as good as the tmb.i think the tmb is more expencive to.