GPS or non-GPS telescope?

For people new to astronomy who want to ask those questions that they were afraid to ask. Receive helpful answers here.
vivid
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Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:21 pm
Location: P@D

Post by vivid »

Guys, first of all a big thank you for all the info, it indeed is enlightening and many valid points made.
timatworksg wrote:Prob with mounts are that the payload specs shown are never correct..or near correct.
Yep, like with many other tech stuff/tools nowadays that we come across too. LOL! But actually I just found out that CG-5 is advertised to 30lb visual and 15lb AP advertised limit. Tracking don't bring into the picture, like Orly said it sucks. LOL! But its ok, must learn to crawl first (i'm a complete noob) before walking, running and see if I can fly. LOL! DSO AP may be extremely difficult and frustrating, there is still lunar & planets, hey there is still quite a bit of fun to be had within the solar system.
Basically I'm trying to find out all the points first, so that I know what am I getting into and ensuring there is enough for me to be interested in so this hobby does not stagante and equipment becoming white elephants etc.

Its a nice hobby and I've actually wanting to get into it since young about 20 years ago. Got a 30X terrestrial kinda spotting scope but you know no car and no internet hence learning was extremely slow and waned. I had other interests/hobbies like Hifi/audio and later car mods, aquariums, photography. Actually I had a few times tried to re-ignite this after I drove to Jurong Island's tip (the end of it towards south china sea after the long 1.8km straight) and saw the nice black skies. But as you know, its a chore to drive there and back. After 9/11 then it was history with all the security. LOL!
vivid
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:21 pm
Location: P@D

Post by vivid »

orly_andico wrote:add on to Weixing's post...
Now a C11 has a focal length of 2800mm, for a per-pixel resolution of 0.3 arc-seconds! so the mount error will completely swamp any resolution you get from the C11.

Also consider that urban seeing causes disruptions in the order of +/- 5 arc-seconds (it's much, much worse in the day.. so forget any ideas of reading street signs in Batam.. with my C9.25 during the day I can see heat shimmering over <1 km distance at the eyepiece).
Orly, thank you for all tech info. Though I can just digest it on the surface but I can grasp it (i was into amateur photography + used to telephoto nature shooting).

Agree with the unstable atmos disturbance during the day. I'm just trying to find some other uses for it as well, the equipment's not cheap. As you can see, I like to "look". LOL!
My experience with terrestrial observations during the day esp hot days is that it could be better if you are elevated high up (that's my case) and if you are observing objects over water, not so much heat waves rising. I did look through a simple 30X50mm scope before on top of another building (about 140m height) and it was not that bad, shimmering is evident but its usable. I guess at 300-600 power that's another ball game altogether. Just now I just woke up and took a peek through my 10x50 binos at 4AM, Batam lights looked pretty stable just a wee bit of shimmering. Nearby ships within like 10km are v stable actually over the Southern seas. But over Mount Faber there is some heat source that make things look bad, I guess if you are looking over some major landmass it mucks things up. Good thing is that a large expanse here is unaffected by that, plus my elevation up here. "Not too bad", I guess. 1-2km objects would mean I am "looking down" and from what I saw yesterday/last night and now its great.

Actually I can see Pulau Semakau from here, and I use it to gauge the air quality. Sometimes its quite bad and I can't see the HPS street lights there, sometimes I can see but with lots of twinkling due to unstability, sometimes its SOLID.
Its quite the acid test/indicator, as the street lamps are all spaced out, its quite far from here, hence not too bright unlike other masses of street lamps.

Another question I'd like to ask is if my location is decent. Its definitely no Tuas/Changi, I thought I saw a post here indicating interest here at P@D, but others saying that its a bad location due to proximity to the CBD - its no go with LP and wind etc. But I wonder if its similar to Marina Barrage. Actually the wind is ok, there are some "dead spots" which are shielded by the huge 3 storey tall roof structures housing water tanks etc). But generally its pretty windy esp during NE monsoon, I recorded gusts of up to 30+ kph on my portable weather station and its pretty cold, like 21-22 deg C. So there might be some v minor thermal considerations of the equipment/mirrors cooling down for 10 mins to stabilise. But nothing too serious I hope, compared to temperate countries of coz. heh heh... The sky expanse is great here, there are 3 major spots so you can move around to avoid the monsoon wind (actually I don't think its sea breeze, just some people's convenient reason why there is wind). The wind dir can get variable but not very often. Local lights are shielded, but only spot is that directly above the CBD is not usable. If you are observing upwards like 30 deg from zenith its great as the skybridge shields you from the lights which are below you.

The good thing is that this is in my own backyard as I have 2 sky gardens here, hence I can be on standby 365 days and nearly 24/7. Any chance comes I grab, something is better than nothing - when the skies clear I can grab every chance to go ob, hence increasing the learning curve even if its just 1-2 hrs. If you plan something, drive.....then that day comes and you are tired due to work etc. Argh. I have had that with birding on Sundays couple of years ago, could not wake up at 5AM in order to reach the site by first light. LOL! And the trek with the equipment is a killer. In fact I think my home is also usable as it peeks into the majority of the Southern skies after discounting Jurong/P Bukum area, no so much LP. If its Orchard/JB facing then I dare not say.
vivid
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:21 pm
Location: P@D

Post by vivid »

Anyway to be sure, I am not sure if anybody is kind or interested enough to do a test run up there at the sky garden with your equipment (you are the experts LOL!). Another factor would be that some parts for 2 of the ob points have those man-made artificial wood panels on the ground, its stable but only if nobody is 5m near you walking. But generally most weekday nights there are not many people, and its just a small portion the other portions are solid concrete with tiles. No vibrations even with 2 pax jumping, the skybridges are engineered to be real solid there. This location is v important because its going to be extremely accessible to me with instant ob opportunities available, so the heavy equipment is not an issue.

The chances to do obs is very impt at least to me, esp now that we have to contend with the clear skies. Many times when I did birding/photography it rains and that's it, and no dew to worry about here...it can be an issue with bird photography as well. Other than that, human luxuries like dustbin, seats (you can even lie down), makan/drinks/toilet all also taken care of liao. Personal safety not an issue, the whole place also got long cables which are strung between blocks running the whole 400m length which act as lightning conductor, so no issue with freak lateral long distance lighting strikes...the type it jumps long distance from Cumulonimbus clouds.
Anybody who is interested, do let me know I'd be glad to see what is possible. Thanks! :)
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timatworksg
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Post by timatworksg »

Hey Vivid,

Your Ob location rooftop sounds juicy!! PM some details, and I wouldn't mind checking it out,...anyone else interested to just go light and chit chat?

Lunar AP is still fun,...though sometimes you have to set up early (Venus) or stay up late (Jupiter) and then "CLOUDS!!" ....zzzzzzzzzz haha! Done it million times....sleep that is.

Great that your gathering your goods and bad's before plunging in! I would love to dive deeper and my AP skills are only beginner. It's times like these I wish I had a better mount, great equipment, etc....but it's all at a cost! Something I don't wish to do especially with a family and all,..plus my girls are more important to me.
Hey! I did aquariums too! Planted tank with DIY CO2!! 3yrs then had overgrown plants and no where to put them! Did commercial photography as well as a self- employed for 5yrs. Now I just work and people pay me...haha! Astronomy is a hobby for me,...and stumbled many times. I'm happy with my kit now (80ED & C8) but as always, crave better...yumm! I use a Vixen GP and started to consider a better mount...but If, as you mentioned, you can't crawl, why run!! So practice with a set up that works for me now is a better option till a windfall comes my way. Then perhaps maybe! I mostly do AP from my balcony as It's too much stuff to lug even to a nearby car park roof. Balcony is limited so I'm working on a balcony planter box pier to give me some extra sky space. Prob is,..a blooming street lamp is nearby! For outdoor Obs I go either 80ED/C8 and my voyager AltAz mount for grab and go.

What I'm getting at is, a hobby is fun and personally, I like to do things differently and admire those who do as well! There are always ways to do something, though expectations are limited. A good example are the pics from mini tower AltAz mounts....they look stunning! It's taking your limitations and making the best of them and enjoying the process at the same time.

The Singapore skies aren't forgiving and can ruin a well set up night. Sometimes, I just turn off my star chart software and just scan the stars looking for something that amazes me. Most of the time I scan till I don't know where I am...haha! But it's the adaptation to your interest really. Wish I had a car (hopefully soon) but with a family, long Obs are problematic with kids! I believe Singapore skies, light polluted or not, have alot to offer, especially when the best parts of the milky way are at your back door!! Finding, researching and planning are the fun parts...then it's trying to conquer those darn clouds!!

A GPS scope, helps with alignment! EQ's are harder to set up but easy once you get the hang of it. Hence why many have 2 or more scope and mounts! Feild rotation is a prob with fork mounts, unless you have a wedge, which some DIY then it turns into an EQ. But if your ok with simple and pleasing shots of planets and DSO's then it is possible. Just no extreme long exposure. Which is where I'm aiming at for now. If I get proficient, then maybe upgrade...but I'm content with where I am!

Nice Dark areas away from lights are always good, keeping eyes adapted thru the Ob session and making the skies easier to see. With Light pollution you need the star to be higher than 20degrees up, to get decent darkness. I agree with this as it makes a huge diff, but with limitations personally, equipment availability, making use of a bad situation and enjoying it, turns a bad sky into a great night of Obbing! It's in the mindset i guess..

So keep in touch and PM me if needed. I wouldn't mind lugging my AT voyager mount and 80ED for some chit chat some nice Friday/Sat evening (F1 pending...hehe).

For now, keep the best part of telescopes in good condition....your eyes!! And Have fun!!
vivid
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:21 pm
Location: P@D

Post by vivid »

timatworksg wrote:Hey Vivid,
The Singapore skies aren't forgiving and can ruin a well set up night. Finding, researching and planning are the fun parts...then it's trying to conquer those darn clouds!!
Bro,
I'd definitely agree, it is really rare that we'll have totally clear/clean air quality as well as cloudless (no thin cirrus even) nights, plus the moon is out of the way or less than half crescent. In these instances I am thinking that being ever ready would be great. Else one got 10k worth of equipment, no use at all, coz you aren't simply using it. Since you were in the photography line you'd know also, equipment only does so much if you are not using it coz its unsustainable. :)

Here are some pix (taken by my P@D forum pal Yuki)

RWS South direction (can sometimes see the nightly fireworks)
Image

LP galore, I hope 20 deg above horizon is doable. This is one of the sites I am talking about (the middle of the 7 blocks between 1E and 1F)
I suppose if you move back, the skybridge will shield your objective from the glare.
Image

Image
Forgot to tell you that the top 50th storey is open till 2200h. But 26th storey is open 24/7 for residents. So need to downgrade a bit after that.... But still doable for large patches of the sky.
You can see the end of the blocks, there is a dark spot, that is one of the spot. The other spot is at the other end.

You can see the row of T8 fluorescent lights edge lighting the blocks, after 2200h they will be turned off. Also if you step back you will be shielded from the glare. Anyway the lights shoot "outwards" with a reflector.
From the last image you can see the horizontal steel cable which is grounded, this protects you from Cat 1. :)


End of 1A field of view.
Image

Pulled back to shield from light. Still have some direct light pollution from say top of Capital Tower and some other blocks, but better than streetlamps on rooftop MSCP and nearby HDBs.
Image

Spot at Blk 1F end (Southern and Western skies), concrete there for stability.
Image

What were they thinking when they limit it to 2200h?!?! You can spend the whole night there!
Image
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Gary
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Post by Gary »

Hi Vivid. Nice pictures. I have a Maksutov 5" and definitely do not mind test running it P@D. PM'ed you my contact details. :) For non-residents like me, how to gain access to the 26th level bridge?
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timatworksg
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Post by timatworksg »

Nice views!! Would love a recce and test run.

@Gary...wanna recce?
My wife never complained about how much time, effort & money I spent on my Astronomy hobby!................suddenly I met her!!!
vivid
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:21 pm
Location: P@D

Post by vivid »

Gary wrote:Hi Vivid. Nice pictures. I have a Maksutov 5" and definitely do not mind test running it P@D. PM'ed you my contact details. :) For non-residents like me, how to gain access to the 26th level bridge?
Hi bro, nice...want to see how a 5" aperture would fare there (prob not a lot but with expectations shd be decent). I nearly wanted to get the National Geographic Channel 5" newtonian toy for S$167 @ Vivo Nat Geo shop to play. :)
If its good I don't mind blowing money on a C11 or 14 and all the nice mounts. But start off small first for a couple of months. If its bad then i won't go full blown, coz limited by seeing conditions.

26-sty is only for residents with the smart cards, visitors cannot enter. I have 4 smart cards. 50th level is for residents w smart cards and also paid visitors.
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timatworksg
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Post by timatworksg »

Perhaps you could start a new thread in the Obs section for invitation spots for a mini ob session at the location. Based on your limitations and also what your allowed to do there. Don't wanna cause any probs like steer a plane into a building...haha! you could also state how many visitors allowed for you and/or cost involved. I'm sure Gary and myself wouldn't mind having a recce and test for fun. Besides, it's more the chit chat then the Ob...after all, it's point, find, found, talk...haha!
My wife never complained about how much time, effort & money I spent on my Astronomy hobby!................suddenly I met her!!!
vivid
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:21 pm
Location: P@D

Post by vivid »

Haha.... actually 2-3 pax can liao. I got 4 cards only. Of coz if its a good spot then $5 no issue. Also thinking if a couple hardcore guys bring their big mounts and big guns > 8" or a dob/newtonian it would probably scare the people strolling there. (usually the usual ob locations all I think pretty low profile one) :) If I advertise then 10 people respond I think might trigger security guard (by the managing agent). :)

They have a rule, no social events. So must be less than 4 per group, if asked act blur "dunno the other group" kinda response. Many many people brought cameras/tripods there for many months already, some even professional video equipment and video tripod (big), don't think they can discriminate.

Hope its a good spot, can spread the hobby. Then I learn from the sifus visiting. :)
Parking usually ok, got enough lots in the basement carparks.
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