Feeling discouraged...

cloud_cover · Post by **cloud_cover** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:01 pm

Feeling discouraged about imaging: It seems every site I've read tells me why I've selected my equipment poorly.
I own a Nikon, which most people I'd forummed with say suck big time for AP.
I own an f10 scope at almost 2000mm which people say I'll never get any usable images without spending more on autoguiding unless I stick to moon and maybe Jupiter. But its specifically designed with imaging in mind and has a flat field and fully illuminates a full frame sensor even with focal reducer (which is rather ex for me at present)
Now that I can actually attach my camera to the scope (adapter just came in this week), I almost want to give up.
Sigh..... what can I image on a full frame sensor with an f/10, 1950mm scope reasonably without guiding? (bearing in mind ISO6400 is good, 12500 is usable with some stacking, 25000 is still usable with more frames and increased signal)

orly_andico · Post by **orly_andico** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:55 pm

f/10 2000mm FL and no guiding don't go together in the same sentence, unless that sentence also includes the words "hopeless" or "crazy." :-D

I suggest try imaging with your Celestron 80ED. but then again that has field curvature galore.. and on FX sensor you'll see myriads of egg stars...

don't believe the cr*p about Nikon. 12MP on an FX sensor will still beat any Canon APS-C.

cloud_cover · Post by **cloud_cover** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:18 pm

Thanks bro.......
Or I could image on my 400mm lens which is a far lighter setup and almost similar focal length.
Thing is Vixen focal reducer costs almost $450 to bring in (ouch) and the VMC is not such a common scope that there's a spare one lying around. Other brand 2" focal reducers will almost certainly vignette severely as the FX sensor pretty much needs a 50mm clear aperture focal reducer of which there's only 1 type: the Vixen.

orly_andico · Post by **orly_andico** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:59 pm

there's a reducer for the VMC200 right now on a-mart for $225.

wasn't sure if you had the VC200 or VMC200 so didn't ping you earlier.

cloud_cover · Post by **cloud_cover** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:33 pm

VMC...
Dang! If you look at the Misc section, this ad came up directly after my "Wanted" section!

Post by **rcj** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:32 pm

Please do not be discouraged, Kevin. Actually, the VMC is quite versatile. I would be happy to use it purely for lunar and (like u said) Jupiter, and probably Saturn. I have done a lunar mosaic with my VC200L before, and it was quite a joy to use. Yes, it is an astrograph as well, but although it may sound painful, it is worth saving up for the reducer, otherwise why get the scope in the first place? You will certainly have to go the autoguiding route if you want to see decent DSO shots, but then again, it is a question of what u are expecting out of the telescope. I have seen people using it with a DSLR to image and then mount an 80mm refractor side-by-side together with a QHY5 to autoguide and get pretty decent results. You will definitely have to think about all these hidden costs to fuel your expectations and utilize its flat-field compability as you mentioned, and work with what you have of current, or adjust your budget accordingly. Have fun with the scope!

timatworksg · Post by **timatworksg** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:59 pm

Don't be discouraged! Even fully equipped Astro-Photogs can get discouraged when all the money spent on great stuff yields mediocre images because of the steep learning curve!

But why not just try! I will agree that with 2000mm FL will zoom you in so much that any drift is apparent, but it is possible without autoguiding if you are aligned nicely.

Before I got my pier, I used to lug my GP, 80ED and DSLR onto the MSCP roof. Set up, compass align, then start CCD drift alignment (the one with the 'V' to get it to 'l'). I started with ensuring I got a 'l' for 30s. Then went to 1min. Never went further but I had unguided shots posted here from the MSCP roof.

http://www.singastro.org/viewtopic.php?t=8432
http://www.singastro.org/viewtopic.php?t=8664
http://www.singastro.org/viewtopic.php?t=8539

The Lagoon and Butterfly was DSLR and M42 on the starshoot. But they were all done with CCD drift alignment! No Guide scope.

So you could start with the 80ED coupled to your Nikon. And who says you can't use a Nikon!?? My DSLR shots above were done on my Fuji Finepix S3 unmodded. Ok...not the best shots, but it is possible especially if I planned ahead more...but these were before I got a guide scope, PHD, GPUSB and all those other gizmos!! Just my GP, DSLR, IOptron system and blood and sweat!
I will be honest to say that most of the time I spent setting up was discouraging only to tear down due to clouds, the moment I got my CCD drift aligned! Frustrated YES! But it showed me that it is possible.

More often we have to take reviews with a pinch of salt. Not all is true for every user. It is after all based on experience. So if your 80ED has curvature...crop the edges...after all, are you after Hubble Front Page cover images to show the world or just wonderful satisfying keepsakes!

If it works...Who cares...is what I always do! I remember having my first CCD cam (MEade DSI) put it thru the scope and never got a single image due to the fact that I didn;t know what the heck everything meant!!

You may not be able to expose longer than 30s or 1min, but you will still get images of the skies!! For sure! Whats your aim for now? Quality or just quantity? I would go for quantity in terms if testing and getting your feet wet. Then as you progress, quality. By then you would probably have a guide scope or even DIY'd one from a 50mm bino lens or old Nikon Zoom lens...hehe! Just wait till you get into back focus issues with different cams...adapter after adapter after adapter...haha!!

So,...hope this picks you up bro!! I'm no expert and I still can't get images like Remus's or Cataclysm's, but I don't care! I know with what I did is satisfactory and possible. I know that if I planned ahead with what I have done...it will be better. If it's possible...I don't see why it can't!

If you surf deeper into the www, some have done amazing stuff with the IOptron MiniTower at 30s shot wide! Many have done Nebula's and DSO's with SCT's!! Clusters with H-a filters!!
Its finding your style and improving on it!

And don't let the clouds or rainy days dampen your spirits! Yes...less chance to test AP, but it increases your planning time! And as Remus has shown, with his recent 2010 images....it is possible with our skies! He may have a better scope...but it is still a scope!

Keep at it! Trust me...just keep at it! It's a hobby that grows with you and shouldn't die just because we don't spend time with it.

Just my 2c!

cloud_cover · Post by **cloud_cover** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:02 am

Thanks Remus.
I was looking forward to starting on the moon. At prime focus the moon just fills the height of the photo so it should be spectacular in full-frame 12MP. At f10 that will still be 1/640 at ISO 400-800, which is as clean as it gets noise wise for the D700. Was looking forward to using my TC20E-III teleconverter but Nikon sneakily made the bayonet mount on the TC just 1mm smaller than the T-adapter bayonet mount. I think I'll have to file it down slightly. 4000mm on the moon will be VERY nice, f/20 not withstanding.
Still, my passion is for DSOs. I'm hoping that with the high ISO performance of the D700 and large chip, it will at least allow me to reduce exposure times dramatically (ISO25000 is noisy but stackable) and resize photos (not crop) so that small tracking errors are mitigated. But realistically I don't expect to get the smallest or dimmest ones without further upgrades.

cloud_cover · Post by **cloud_cover** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:02 am

Thanks for the encouragement Tim

Yeah, AP equipment has been my costliest purchase to date as far as photographic equipment is concerned, bar none.
Hopefully I'll be able to churn out some decent images as well

Anyway, if all else fails, I can use my 2000mm lens to photograph the city skyline from clear across the island.....

orly_andico · Post by **orly_andico** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:13 am

Kevin, costliest purchase? :-)

I'd say the D700 costs more than any of those individual astro-bits. Not to mention that 70-200 VR.

I keep telling my wife (who keeps bringing up the 5D Mk II) that said camera body costs as much as a G-11 with Gemini. :-D

(of course in the end its still cheaper because there's no humongous shipping charge)

Anyway I'm glad you got the reducer. You owe me dinner for all the used gizmos I've pointed you to! :-D